I’m talking about on my Rogue, Falken. Yesterday I got the second of his PvP daggers, the [Gladiator's Shanker] (complete with [Mongoose] enchant) to go with my [Gladiator's Shiv]. Now I realize weapons alone don’t make the man. But I’m not seeing much difference between the new weapons and my older ones (a couple of level 70 AH blues).
I’ve also upgrade to a [Shadowprowler's Chestguard], appropriately gemmed and enchanted with +150 Health. I die just as quickly as ever.
So I’m thinking it must be my template; however, that’s supposed to be a decent one for PvP: a solid Shadowstep Subtlety build, 17/0/44. I’m a daggers guy, and my concept of the rogue class is to sneak around, sap or garrotte people, lift their purses, and stabbity-stabbity in the back. So I’m not going to pick up combat swords.
Should I respec back to a combat daggers build? Is that going to improve my offensive output significantly? (I figure if my offense improves to where I can kill off the other guy or gal before I die, then my longevity automagically increases). But I gotta tell you, Cheat Death is so nice! And I can tell when another rogue is subtlety-specced as well [rueful grin]. Another thing I realize is that with resilience gear, those huge crits I’m used to in PvE aren’t going to happen as frequently and won’t be as huge in PvP. But is that different between daggers, and swords or maces (I hate maces, btw).
I think what I may do is take Kestrel into AV, maybe WSG (ugh!) as well, possibly EOTS, and see how his combat dagger build holds up. It may not be a fair comparison though, as his weapons and armor are now well below Falken’s.
Are there any other suggestions out there for how to make Falken more viable in PvP? I really enjoy the rogue, but I really am starting to hate spending most of my time waiting to resurrect in a graveyard.
I think consuming wheaties every morning for breakfast will go a long way in making you feel good. And if you feel good, then you play good. Wheaties is the breakfast of champions, after all.
Although in all honesty, when I’m sculpting one of my characters for PvP play, I stack resilience and health the whole time. So I’m a little curious as to how much resilience and such that you have. I’m not sure if that armory posting lists your PvE gear or your PvP gear. I’m not too sure about your specs either, I’ll leave that to someone else. But one thing for sure is that your spec’s not going to matter a whole lot if you can’t survive. It sounds like your damage output is on par and nothing’s wrong with that.
Must live!
Matticus’s last blog post..20 Questions with Matticus
I go with Bite-Sized Shredded Wheat; think that’ll do?
I only have one set of gear: Falken’s not a main by any means, and I’ve just gotten into PvP the past couple months. So, my gear is a mishmash but I’m working on getting a PvP set.
I also realized that not only is my Resilience the pits (at 44, I think), but I’ve had too great an emphasis on Crit gearing, and need to improve both Stam & Hit. (Kestrel has around 1600 more health than Falken…lolwut?)
So yeah, I think just the act of putting my thoughts into written words has helped to focus me on what I need to do…
…lots, and lots, and lots more BGs. /cry
Okies, sounds like the question be answered. Now you needs a plan. I recommends ya try to get two pieces of gladiator’s whichever first. That +35 resil set bonus makes it the most honor-efficient approach. The sergeant’s heavy cloak also has a high resil/honor ratio.
Good lucks with it!
Ratshag’s last blog post..Friday Night Dakoneris
Yep; got a list in front of me. Have 2 or 3 pieces of that set on Talonis, so I know it’s effective. I’ve looked at the cloak, but my Cloak of the Craft is too good to give up at this point.
I don’t have any suggestions beyond those posted here, but I have to admit that I find it reassuring to read posts from others who struggle with PvP. Especially because it seems that in PvP I am ALWAYS dying at the hands of a rogue. And I think I may dig into some Wheaties as well; you’ll have to let me know how that works!
Seidhkona’s last blog post..Perfect mediocrity…
Ooh! Ooh! I forgot! When 2.4 hits, there’s gonna be a 5-piece PvP armor set of blues for each class which can be purchased from various faction quartermasters (Lower city, Keepers of Time, etc) if yer honored with that faction. Like Gladiator’s gear, 2 pieces gives ya a +35 resil bonus – not clear if two of each gives two bonuses or not. Quick easy PvP-tuned gear if you wants.
Ratshag’s last blog post..Is Like Strip Poker, Only You Start Naked and Dance with Mr Smite
Oh my…that’s great news. It means two things:
1. I need to read PTR notes now. *sigh*
2. I may not have to farm all those WSG marks I need for one item!!
Here be the wowhead link fer the rogue set.
Ratshag’s last blog post..Is Like Strip Poker, Only You Start Naked and Dance with Mr Smite
Hi Kestrel,
I can’t check your armory, or your build at work, but I think if you are going with 17/0/44 you are missing out on some key talents needed for daggers. You definitely need to fill all the talent points which give bonuses to backstab and ambush if you use daggers.
A build like 10/0/51 will give you huge ambush crits and decent backstabs even against high resilience characters. I can post a build for you when I get home if you want. You also get to keep the mobility and “extreme fun” of shadow step. The buffs you get with Dirty Deeds and Shadowstep when you ambush a clothy low on health are huge.
Even on high resilience cloth targets, 3.5-5k+ ambush crits are not unusual. Against plate wearers though, you may as well be hitting them with toothpicks. One option is to take Hemo in a 10/0/51 build and switch to a mace or sword when you face plate wearers.
17/0/44 is really optimal with swords or maces. But spamming Hemo can be so boring, and just doesn’t feel roguish enough, though I am keeping that specc for now…
Maybe some of the tips I posted on my site will help with the tactics… good luck and keep at it! Rogues are a lot of fun to pvp with!
luketheduke’s last blog post..Great Free Leveling Guide
@Luke: Hey Luke…thanks so much for taking the time to comment! Good point on putting more points in Subtlety to improve dagger crits.
Since I now have both of the PvP daggers, I’m very reluctant to switch out to sword or mace, so I’ll just eat the reduced damage vs. plate-wearers.
Although I’ve found I do okay against Pallys…it’s rather strange; maybe I just get the sucky pallys?
But I’ll definitely review my talents, and see how to improve that. Realize when I picked up this spec, I was just starting to do PvP, and hadn’t really played either of my rogues in quite awhile.
Thanks again for the insights!
The gear imbalance is higher than it used to be. You can be a fresh level 70 in mostly greens and now run into someone with full Season 3 gear. Falken’s gear is blue except the weapons and chest piece. If you meet a reasonable player in great gear, it’s going to be rough.
Also it depends on if you are more of a team player. Do you break stealth to help a flag carrier or capture a tower, waste a stun to save someone else? Even with the best resilience and stamina gear you will still get owned more than those ignoring the team objectives. It’s rarely fun to be the sacrificial lamb but you get the satisfaction of winning, along with honor and gear faster. Plus you get more quality time with the spirit healers.
Aos’s last blog post..What is this?
Good points, Aos. In fact yesterday, I got the S2 (I think?) Gaunts & Helm from the Faction QMs. Still need a gem in the helm (I can craft it; just don’t have one handy yet), and I put the Powerful Earthstorm Diamond in the meta slot. Even w/o the meta gem, on Tues my damage, kills, etc were much higher. Tonight sucked, though: First, the lag. Then, we (Allies) couldn’t fight our way out of a wet paper bag. Between Falken & Talonis, we won 2 of 10 AVs today; my rate before that according to HonorFu was 70% wins.
And yes…I’ll break stealth to help an ally, or on Talonis when I’m charging RH, I’ll stop and take out a caster or rogue who is harassing a teammate.
It’s really strange: For YEARS, I hated/avoided dying in MMOs. I think Asheron’s Call conditioned me, since there was a fairly sizable death penalty. And corpse runs in AC generally sucked.
But in WoW, I’ve gotten past that hangup, and in BGs, I find no disgrace (but maybe some disgust) in having a lot of deaths: For the most part, it means I’ve been doing what I entered the BG to do.
At any rate, both guys now have shopping lists for PvP sets.
OHHH…lol…and most importantly, I respecced Falken to a Mutilate build…and oh-em-gee, is he dealing some damage now!! Easily twice, and probably 3x what I was doing last weekend.
I read this post a long time ago but never got a chance to respond.
If you enjoy playing daggers, I would highly recommend a mutilate build. If you want to pvp mostly then spec 20 in subt or 20 in combat if you pve a little.
However there are some good pointers in some of the comments. I.E s1 (2) piece resil bonus is def a good idea.
From my experience mutilate is THE best dagger build. I played my rogue with mutilate for 2+something years REFUSING to jump onto the HARP bandwagon. I too have the same concept of a rogue as well…poke poke from the back. Since I picked up s3 recently I am trying shadowstep, and it’s been treating me very well in arena…even with the new muti talent boost I prefer ShS because it’s a lot more fun now, however I will go back to Muti when I pick up s3 MH dagger.
For the love of god please do not spec combat daggers (at least for pvp).
Bleh I forgot to mention…
I currently am using a s3 sword for hemo. Hemo IMHO is meant to be played with a strong MH instead of a dagger. There is also a great build if u don’t want to do mutilate. Its something like 21/0/40 where you give up ShS for Coldblood. It’s a pretty deadly build as well.
You don’t want to play ShS with daggers just because it kills the burst. You have good openers but thats about it. Subt is meant to be a sustained (white damage) build. Meaning less finishers and more hits where you use 1 or 2 cp points for SnD. With mutilate u will be cycling a lot more finishers because of seal fate. (btw stacking crit is very good idea with daggers since most dagger builds require a lotta crit.) In season 2 when I was muti, my unbuffed crit was 36% (~50% during combat) in full pvp gear, which is excellent for daggers.
Hope any of this helps. Drop me a note if you have any rogue questions. Don’t forget about Cerias and Doomilas as well… they are great rogues. Oh and Ziss from pvpsource.com has excellent rogue advice to give out. Oh my!! and Valenna ofcourse